I enjoy masturbating to Cardi B music videos, cartoons about incest, and stories about men bein g sexually abused by their mothers on the website malesurvivor.org. I also used to watch real porn, but six months ago I stopped. I believe the financial incentives and pressures involved in porn make it so the performers can’t truly consent (I say this as someone who has been in front of the camera a few times myself). If we get UBI someday and I know the performers are not choosing between homelessness or anal sex, I’ll start watching real porn again.
"Thought is not the instrument for achieving anything other than the goals set before us by our culture or society, or whatever you want to call it. The basic problem we have to face today is this: the cultural input, or what society has placed before us as the goal for all of us to reach and attain, is the enemy of this living organism. Thought can only create problems; it cannot help us to solve any."
I believe the above is the heart of the situation. Mankind, through the invention of value systems, has created an inescapable predicament for himself. He wants everyone and everything to fit a common mold - he wants heaven and the ever after. He wants to live forever. He wants to always be content and in bliss. And in the pursuit of those ideals, he necessarily has to destroy anything he believes is an obstacle to them.
But the real cause of the issue is the pursuit of the ideals, because they're not natural - they go against the way the world actually operates.
Man wants to be a being that doesn't want to fuck his neighbour's wife or the underage teenager, he wants to be a divine and flawless spirit destined to live forever. But it's impossible for him to be that - at least not in the comforting way he wants to imagine.
But you're not going to be able to stop it. Can you for instance stop yourself from having ideals of your own, about how the world "ought to be"? They all lead in the same direction. The second any of us say "the world should be this way, and not that way", we're part of the same momentum.
I have never understand the illegality of viewing child porn. We treat the pictures like they are voodoo dolls. If i print a picture of a child and stab it, the child feels no pain. But somehow they know I am looking at it and are hurt?
I broadly agree with you, but then I thought about revenge porn, which I think is a pretty good analogy. If the victim found out people were looking at it, they'd feel hurt and violated. Do you think it's it wrong to look at it? Why or why not?
No he’s both for ai searching out and removing real CP from the internet and he’s also in favour of Ai generated CP.
He seems to think it will satisfy a pedophiles sexual appetite and therefor deter them from acting out child sexual abuse in the real world. Im interested to know what type of child porn he would endorse for use in a program like this? After all , there is a whole array of child sexual abuse. Is he endorsing just naked children or full double penetration ai child porn. Let’s not forget about the ai babies… Is Max advocating for ai baby porn aswell? What about ai baby snuff film. After all it’s all on the menu for those suffering from pedophilia?
I'd be fine with any type of ai generated child porn except violent ones, there's some research that suggest that it would lower sexual crimes against children, but there was also research on violent porn increasing sexual crimes (while controversial, I think there would atleast need more research for that)
I am. I genuinely don't think people should go to jail for merely possessing CP. For creating it, buying it, or selling it, yes (although I am anti-jail in general, but given our current legal system, those people should be prosecuted as they already are).
after reading your sound of freedom piece and hearing about your experiences with your mom i am extremely confused by this blog post, especially the line of "I mean, it’s already kind of a big favor to ask pedophiles to live their lives in miserable celibacy" - what are we supposed to do instead? let them engage in pedophilic fantasies and be with children? because it's too much of a big favor to try to simply not get them to wanna fuck/fuck a kid? seems counterintuitive. also you were the guy who said the director of cuties did a good job of making 11 year olds look hot so i think you might just be a pedophile
I think we should indeed ask pedophiles to live their lives in miserable celibacy. I'm not sure what you mean by "let them engage in pedophilic fantasies and be with children" as those are two pretty different things. The point of this article is to cleave a line between thoughts and actions, but if you stitch the two back together in your comment, I have no away to answer your questions.
You forget that for there to be any CSAM content out there, a child has to be abused, inherently requiring there to be an abused child somewhere. Even if it's not sound of freedom kidnapping, children can not consent. When you create a market for this there will be more and more of this happening the penalties are there for a reason, to prevent this from happening. Also the congnitive dissonance in the consumer of this material, because of the search for hyper novel content. All porn should be banned.
The other part that you don’t even consider about AI CSAM is that it can made the likeness of a real child and that being distributed or used and shouldn’t be legal whatsoever. I’m not sorry to say that there is no place for pedophilia in our society. As a victim I don’t feel bad for anyone that needs that sort of sexual gratification, I’d rather have their brains forcibly operated on to end their sexual drive. This is such a disgusting article and again, it only looks at the side of the ILLEGAL PERPETRATORS.
The reason that viewing it is illegal is bc people CREATE CSAM to sell it. Making it illegal to view it not only stops a percentage of sales but it also helps LEAD to who was selling it. Just like possessing drugs, cops may not care so much about the possessor but who they want is actually the seller and creator. It’s not murder “porn”, it’s something much more sinister than that. I’m someone who is a survivor of child molestation and the thought of you or anyone else getting off on the idea that I was molested is disgusting and immoral, but had you POSSESSED my CSAM that SHOULD be illegal. It shouldn’t be out there and I should have that protection from my government, not the other way around.
The fact is that the viewer barely gets charged if they cooperate, and didn’t distribute it. The police want the distributors and the creators and to SAVE THE CHILD. They could barely give two craps about who views it but you still have to answer to them just like if you had drugs on you. You could get charged or if you tell them where you got it you could go free, but it depends on how VILE THE CRIME WAS.
I’m in actual tears, my body is shutting down and I don’t think you understand how even an article like this is so harmful the victims. All you did was consider the side of the victimizer (yes that’s you) and not the victim, someone like me. Is beyond hurtful to survivors of CSAM and I truly wish we could do away with all pedophile, including mine who is a family member, so that no child ever has to be harmed ever again. This is so abhorant, I hope all of you congratulating this author read this and reconsider your stands bc it’s so completely and entirely harmful. I’m actually so sick about this I’m going to throw up.
When you VIEW a photo or video of a VICTIM of SEXUAL ASSAULT you are victimizing them again. Do you think they WANT you to see them naked being abused? No! They were forced to dj this and now you’re using their torture for your sexual gratification. Let’s pretend you have a 2 inch pecker… you’re highly embarrassed of it. Your ex gets mad at you and releases videos of you having sex with her. She gets arrested (because that’s a crime) and now people know they’re not legally allowed to view your photos anymore…. But they do it anyway because they have sexual urges for 2 inch peckers. Are you ok with all these people still viewing and getting off on your embarrassment just because they’re not the ones who took the video?
you missed my point. It wasn’t about revenge porn. I gave the analogy as a way to show how anyone who views the porn is re victimizing over and over again. To top it off as everyone else has stated you’re creating a market. Websites make a ton of money the more visitors they get. So if you’re putting up something even for free that creates more traffic then you’re creating a bigger market
As I said in the article, I think people should be prosecuted for selling CP, which would include setting up a website and making money from ads hypothetically (although I find it very unlikely that anyone actually runs their company's ads on a CP cite...).
I also agree that viewing CP is immoral (just like recreationally watching a video of someone getting murdered is immoral). The question is if people should go to jail for it. I don't think they should. That doesn't mean I think it's a good thing to do.
The reason that viewing it is illegal is bc people CREATE CSAM to sell it. Making it illegal to view it not only stops a percentage of sales but it also helps LEAD to who was selling it. Just like possessing drugs, cops may not care so much about the possessor but who they want is actually the seller and creator. It’s not murder “porn”, it’s something much more sinister than that. I’m someone who is a survivor of child molestation and the thought of you or anyone else getting off on the idea that I was molested is disgusting and immoral, but had you POSSESSED my CSAM that SHOULD be illegal. It shouldn’t be out there and I should have that protection from my government, not the other way around.
If you know something is illegal and you seek it out… that means you have a problem. When the fear of prison and loss of job doesn’t deter you then that’s a problem and you are a pedophile. I can tell you based on work I’ve done in the past that people who accidentally view it on a website and do not seek It out are not prosecuted. Very simple forensic investigations on your computer or phone can tell if you accidentally bumped into it or searched for it. And if you searched for it you purposely committed a crime because you can’t control your urges. These are the people who need to be arrested because they create a market and may even eventually hurt a child. I have seen firsthand several times someone get flagged for child porn. They get questioned and say “honest to god it was an accident. I was bouncing around online and clicked here and this page popped up” and when they investigate the computer it turns out to be true and no charges are filed problem is most people who claim it was an accident end up having hundreds or thousands of pictures downloaded on their computer and claim it’s an accident. Happened recently where I live to an actual police officer. He claimed it was an accident and had about 3,000 images downloaded.
As a victim I can tell you that viewing it is not a victimless crime. This only creates excuses for the illegal act and doesn’t even consider the side of the victim. You should be seriously ashamed of yourself and I hope you question your morals after this.
Every photo and video that pedos use for gratification is of a real child. A child being sexually objectified. It is SO not a victimless crime i dont know how you think it is. Its so unlike the war on drugs i cant even. For your information pedophiles do not care if you love them or hate them. They want to abuse kids is all.
I think you are conflating the creation of CSAM with the viewing of it. Creating it obviously victimizes a child (unless a minor makes it truly on their own, in which case they are victimizing themselves if they share it with anyone).
The act of merely viewing it in an isolated and private environment is a victimless crime.
It’s not victimless to the child, you’re talking from the other side but as a survivor of child molestation your posturing is plainly wrong. If you viewed my CSAM it is and should be illegal, plainly thinking about it however is not, that’s your freedom and my freedom is to be protected from ppl like you who believe it should be legal, resurfaced and spread.
From the article: "Another argument is to protect the privacy and safety of the children depicted in the images. To this end, CSAM should be sought, seized, and destroyed with no exceptions. My hope is that AI moderation tools will soon make it impossible to create or distribute CSAM."
I understand you are angry but I clearly said CSAM should be destroyed.
No, your article clearly states that you believe that viewing it should be legal. Don’t backtrack and try to mask it as condoning AI CSAM.
The reality is that there’s reasons why CSAM isn’t allowed on any platforms nor is the likeliness of it. It’s not in video games, it’s not in anime or cartoons now. The fact is that I was actually groomed by someone using Disney princess likeliness porn. This is serious stuff that you’re not considering whatsoever, because again, you’re not looking at it from the victim’s side, your pants are unzipped and you’re looking for the next “non-porn” porn you can find.
Take responsibility for what you said. It sounds like you’ve made it to a place in exploring sexual gratification where you’ve already overstepped the boundaries of what’s moral, now you’re having a hard time seeing how something can be illegal and directly why. You’ve written this article from the viewpoint of a pedophile and are in fact condoning the viewing of it. As far as AI CSAM I’ve already stated the harm; such as making the likeliness of an actual child. I honestly think it’s time you seek help with your sexual gratification because you’re in serious and legal murky waters. I believe you’ve already sought out CSAM or are considering it while looking for validation. That’s not what you’re going to get.
You use the word “angry” to downgrade the reality; I’m triggered as a survivor. I never used expletive words or even an exclamation point. You took the stance of a victim when met with the truth of a survivor, a true pedophile tactic.
This is why you and “articles” like this are extremely harmful and you’ve sought out a secondary posting website instead of using your own with your full name affiliated with it. However, what you’ve posted is against Substack guidelines be it that you are promoting something that is entirely illegal and for a good reason.
You also stated that simply looking at CSAM is a victimless crime and I’m here to tell you again, it isn’t. There are reasons it’s illegal and also helps track down pedophiles. But you’re completely ignoring them by saying, “it’s a victimless crime”.
Like I said, you didn’t use statistics or even take the viewpoint of the victim, but instead the pedophile, which as someone who has been through loads of therapy, taken psych and even counseled survivors, you’re a either already a predator or on your way to becoming one and are grappling with it. To be clear, veiwing CSAM material is predatory, not “should be legal”.
I think Max agrees with you that the existence and distribution of CSAM is horrible, but he thinks that the blame and punishment should be placed on the abusers who create CSAM and the buyers who incentivize it, rather than people who just look at it without paying. Those people should get help and go to therapy to stop them from acting further, but shouldn't be thrown in jail, since they haven't (yet) contributed directly to the CSAM market. I think putting them in prison would only increase their alienation from society and therefore their likelihood to abuse a child in the future.
I think you're right that viewing CSAM is predatory, but I think we as a society should respond by getting those people help rather than instantly throwing them in jail.
Our system is already set up that way. We’re assuming that Max is correct in saying that a majority of first time offenders go to jail, we’ve yet to see the statistics on that.
We’ve also yet to see that if a person who views CSAM goes to jail. Also, what are the benefits on victims or catching the actual perpetrator and putting a stop to CSAM all together. We’re also not getting information on why CSAM is one of the most horrid and problematic illegal acts. What happens to the victims? And isn’t the whole point that we put a cease to CSAM? We’re looking at this like it’s just someone who’s looking to get high, but it’s much more than that and comparing the two discounts the harm that is done to a child of molestation. He obviously said that if he was a pedophile then he’d look at CSAM… he’s admitting that only pedophiles look at CSAM and pedophilea is extremely illegal in this country. There are countries ppl can go to view it or take advantage of children but the point of our laws to show that we’re vehemently against those sort of acts. Max says that viewing CSAM is a “victimless crime” and as a victim I can with my whole heart tell you that’s not true.
Which side are you on, the victim or the pedophile? And before you answer consider this; I’m all for getting pedos the help they need, but what if allowing access to CSAM doesn’t leave the pedo satisfied, but more hungry? While it also harms the victim again?
No matter what anyone says I’m a victim telling you that it harms victims by viewing CSAM. You can believe me, someone who is experienced in this subject matter, or someone who is ill experienced and posturing for self or pedophilia benefit. There’s no statistical evidence that says viewing CSAM is helpful in stopping child abuse, so why allow it? Just because ppl are making cartel murder videos? What’s the reasoning behind it? Why are we trying to protect pedophiles and not the victims bc you now know that it harms the victim and isn’t a victimless crime like Max said.
Imagine we do open up Pandora’s box and all of a sudden looking at CSAM was legal. Imagine looking over in the train or doctors office and someone is viewing a child being brutalized. Imagine the worst too bc just like Max wants, it’s all open game since murder videos are somehow equal. Now imagine for a moment, that child was YOURS or even you, maybe a sister or cousin or best friend from growing up. You can’t do anything about it bc just looking at it is legal now. Reporting it does nothing bc it’s legal for them to view it and you have no proof that it was being shared by them so even calling the cops to find out where it came from would be fruitless.
By saying it’s a victimless crime it’s apparent that neither you nor Max are actually considering the victim here and you can’t argue the fact that it is harmful to victims because I’m a victim, telling you it’s harmful to me.
The other point is that CSAM is non-consensual, just like rape porn. So imagine for a moment that rape porn is legal too, so videos of your mom, your sister, your daughter being raped or their CSAM is now circulating the school or office place (not being shared, just told where to view it). They never consented to that and they are not only now viewed differently but are subject to harassment or even expulsion or firing. Your mom was just fired bc she was raped and someone made a video of it and it’s legal to view.
This is why viewing this sort of damaging porn should be and will always be illegal, it’s to protect the victim, not the distributor or even viewer.
"okay, if you buy child porn, then yes, you are directly incentivizing someone else to commit a crime. But not if you just look at it."
I think looking at it also incentivizes the production of it. If the person producing the material believes others will benefit from looking at it, and the producer wants to 'help' others, then downloading their material is conformation to them that they should continue.
Also, sorta related: does clout play a factor in your porn veganism? In a post scarcity society, I could see social standing being a form of currency (Ian M. Banks explores this in his 'Culture' novels), and if someone is doing porn to be more famous, would that be a factor for you?
I am classifying looking at it as indirect incentivization, whereas requesting it or paying for it would be direct. (The same way watching a mass shooting video is indirectly incentivizing mass shooters, as opposed to actually hiring someone to carry out a mass shooting.)
No, clout is a derogatory way to say attention, but nearly everyone likes attention.
As a survivor of child molestation you’re both WRONG and aren’t looking at it from the victim’s point of view but instead the victimizer who is trying to find excuses for your CRIMES.
Few topics challenge me as deeply as pedophilia, often pushing my rationality aside in favor of emotional reactions. It's rare for me to engage with such content, and even rarer to find someone with the courage, or perhaps defiance, to express views like yours. Thank you for adding a unique perspective to the discourse.
This isn’t courage, it’s a display of guilt and excuses for a disgusting act. it’s creating a blanket over the idea that CSAM isn’t that bad. It’s excusing the illegal act of viewing it without considering someone like me, the actual victim.
My sister was molested while i was locked out of the room, unable to protect her, when I was a child. I empathize with your struggle and understand why this article makes you feel the way you do. I hope you, like my sister, have the courage, maybe defiance, to not perpetuate the cycle.
Did you just fucking say you hope I’m not a pedophile? How do you live with yourself with such a disgusting mind? Your comment is abhorrent and I feel completely sorry for your sister and hope YOU don’t get off on CSAM. Holy cow
Thank you for the clarification and please consider never saying that phrase to a survivor. To imply anyone who doesn’t display any pedophile behaviors is extremely harmful let alone a survivor. If you’re telling the truth you’re one as well so you should know this. Even someone who was forced to watch it is a survivor.
I also wouldn’t be here speaking out against CSAM if I was a perpetrator or someone who is trying to hurt people, I’m trying to stop that very thing from happening.
People who are victims of abuse, which are many of us, have a tendency to inflict continued harm and suffering on ourselves and the people around us. It takes courage and defiance to not perpetuate this abuse. I view this as a human cyclical condition and something we should all consider. I know personally, that many times I'm not at my best and I need to forgive myself for that so I can forgive others as well.
As a survivor of child molestation this is absolutely disgusting and instead is upholding the side of the criminal instead of considering the victims. It’s abhorrent behavior:
I think the argument about consumption of CSAM fueling the industry maybe isn't as simple as the distinction you make between paying for it and not paying for it. Outside of the dark web, people consume content seemingly for free all the time, but we have huge amounts of advertising infrastructure behind every page render that means even an idle viewing is enough to indirectly support a creator financially, or at least provide them an incentive to keep producing. In theory if this kind of system also existed in the spaces where CSAM was distributed, does the onus fall on the viewer again here?
Obviously it's a crime on the advertisers part for supporting a CSAM website, but if I'm an illegal business that wants to advertise somewhere, I may as well choose to do so on an another illegal service. Even if that service isn't directly making money from its products, it might have some overlap in user demographics with mine that I want to capitalise on. This isn't even counting instances where legitimate businesses could unknowingly give ad revenue to CSAM producers. I don't know how often that's the case, in fact I don't know what the landscape is for advertising stuff on the dark web either, so you might rightly say this is pointless as a hypothetical.
THEY DONT DO IT OUT OF LONELINESS THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH REACHING SEXUAL GRATIFICATION WITHOUT VICTIMIZING SOMEONE OR WATCHING THEM BE VICTIMIZED! We’re not talking about child-like dolls, we’re talking about real children like me, a survivor of child molestation!
You are wrong. I am a MAP. I do not want to hurt anyone. It is hard to live a life full of sexual urges an be unable to act upon them, not impossible, hard. I am going to draw a comparison with homosexuality, even though I am aware the correlation is not completely direct. However, since it is easier to empathize with a homosexual living in a society where their sexual orientation is not considered acceptable, it might be easier for you to understand what pedophiles feel, even if you do not care. Unless you completely suppress sexuality out of pedophiles, which has shown to have really high incidences of suicide, it is inhuman to assume a person can live without expressing their sexuality in one way or another, at least through masturbation. Allowing for AI CSAM would be only a matter of pity towards pedophiles. I wish people had that.
"Thought is not the instrument for achieving anything other than the goals set before us by our culture or society, or whatever you want to call it. The basic problem we have to face today is this: the cultural input, or what society has placed before us as the goal for all of us to reach and attain, is the enemy of this living organism. Thought can only create problems; it cannot help us to solve any."
I believe the above is the heart of the situation. Mankind, through the invention of value systems, has created an inescapable predicament for himself. He wants everyone and everything to fit a common mold - he wants heaven and the ever after. He wants to live forever. He wants to always be content and in bliss. And in the pursuit of those ideals, he necessarily has to destroy anything he believes is an obstacle to them.
But the real cause of the issue is the pursuit of the ideals, because they're not natural - they go against the way the world actually operates.
Man wants to be a being that doesn't want to fuck his neighbour's wife or the underage teenager, he wants to be a divine and flawless spirit destined to live forever. But it's impossible for him to be that - at least not in the comforting way he wants to imagine.
But you're not going to be able to stop it. Can you for instance stop yourself from having ideals of your own, about how the world "ought to be"? They all lead in the same direction. The second any of us say "the world should be this way, and not that way", we're part of the same momentum.
I have never understand the illegality of viewing child porn. We treat the pictures like they are voodoo dolls. If i print a picture of a child and stab it, the child feels no pain. But somehow they know I am looking at it and are hurt?
I broadly agree with you, but then I thought about revenge porn, which I think is a pretty good analogy. If the victim found out people were looking at it, they'd feel hurt and violated. Do you think it's it wrong to look at it? Why or why not?
I think I misunderstood, are you against making an ai that generates ai child porn?
No he’s both for ai searching out and removing real CP from the internet and he’s also in favour of Ai generated CP.
He seems to think it will satisfy a pedophiles sexual appetite and therefor deter them from acting out child sexual abuse in the real world. Im interested to know what type of child porn he would endorse for use in a program like this? After all , there is a whole array of child sexual abuse. Is he endorsing just naked children or full double penetration ai child porn. Let’s not forget about the ai babies… Is Max advocating for ai baby porn aswell? What about ai baby snuff film. After all it’s all on the menu for those suffering from pedophilia?
I'd be fine with any type of ai generated child porn except violent ones, there's some research that suggest that it would lower sexual crimes against children, but there was also research on violent porn increasing sexual crimes (while controversial, I think there would atleast need more research for that)
It's an interesting article and argument. I assume you your not actually advocating for a change in how we prosecute CP possessions?
I am. I genuinely don't think people should go to jail for merely possessing CP. For creating it, buying it, or selling it, yes (although I am anti-jail in general, but given our current legal system, those people should be prosecuted as they already are).
I think you've changed my mind Max. Good work.
How has he changed your mind and on what?
after reading your sound of freedom piece and hearing about your experiences with your mom i am extremely confused by this blog post, especially the line of "I mean, it’s already kind of a big favor to ask pedophiles to live their lives in miserable celibacy" - what are we supposed to do instead? let them engage in pedophilic fantasies and be with children? because it's too much of a big favor to try to simply not get them to wanna fuck/fuck a kid? seems counterintuitive. also you were the guy who said the director of cuties did a good job of making 11 year olds look hot so i think you might just be a pedophile
I think we should indeed ask pedophiles to live their lives in miserable celibacy. I'm not sure what you mean by "let them engage in pedophilic fantasies and be with children" as those are two pretty different things. The point of this article is to cleave a line between thoughts and actions, but if you stitch the two back together in your comment, I have no away to answer your questions.
You forget that for there to be any CSAM content out there, a child has to be abused, inherently requiring there to be an abused child somewhere. Even if it's not sound of freedom kidnapping, children can not consent. When you create a market for this there will be more and more of this happening the penalties are there for a reason, to prevent this from happening. Also the congnitive dissonance in the consumer of this material, because of the search for hyper novel content. All porn should be banned.
I don't think I forgot that--I addressed it in the article.
I agree that CSAM should be banned and destroyed (I said that in the article).
The thing I don't agree with is that people should go to jail for looking at it.
The other part that you don’t even consider about AI CSAM is that it can made the likeness of a real child and that being distributed or used and shouldn’t be legal whatsoever. I’m not sorry to say that there is no place for pedophilia in our society. As a victim I don’t feel bad for anyone that needs that sort of sexual gratification, I’d rather have their brains forcibly operated on to end their sexual drive. This is such a disgusting article and again, it only looks at the side of the ILLEGAL PERPETRATORS.
give it time Cara.
Twittter and internet are doing what they do better.
just watch.
The reason that viewing it is illegal is bc people CREATE CSAM to sell it. Making it illegal to view it not only stops a percentage of sales but it also helps LEAD to who was selling it. Just like possessing drugs, cops may not care so much about the possessor but who they want is actually the seller and creator. It’s not murder “porn”, it’s something much more sinister than that. I’m someone who is a survivor of child molestation and the thought of you or anyone else getting off on the idea that I was molested is disgusting and immoral, but had you POSSESSED my CSAM that SHOULD be illegal. It shouldn’t be out there and I should have that protection from my government, not the other way around.
The fact is that the viewer barely gets charged if they cooperate, and didn’t distribute it. The police want the distributors and the creators and to SAVE THE CHILD. They could barely give two craps about who views it but you still have to answer to them just like if you had drugs on you. You could get charged or if you tell them where you got it you could go free, but it depends on how VILE THE CRIME WAS.
I’m in actual tears, my body is shutting down and I don’t think you understand how even an article like this is so harmful the victims. All you did was consider the side of the victimizer (yes that’s you) and not the victim, someone like me. Is beyond hurtful to survivors of CSAM and I truly wish we could do away with all pedophile, including mine who is a family member, so that no child ever has to be harmed ever again. This is so abhorant, I hope all of you congratulating this author read this and reconsider your stands bc it’s so completely and entirely harmful. I’m actually so sick about this I’m going to throw up.
When you VIEW a photo or video of a VICTIM of SEXUAL ASSAULT you are victimizing them again. Do you think they WANT you to see them naked being abused? No! They were forced to dj this and now you’re using their torture for your sexual gratification. Let’s pretend you have a 2 inch pecker… you’re highly embarrassed of it. Your ex gets mad at you and releases videos of you having sex with her. She gets arrested (because that’s a crime) and now people know they’re not legally allowed to view your photos anymore…. But they do it anyway because they have sexual urges for 2 inch peckers. Are you ok with all these people still viewing and getting off on your embarrassment just because they’re not the ones who took the video?
Viewing revenge porn is not illegal. If my ex posts a video of us having sex on the internet, you think everyone who downloads it should go to jail?
Of course I wouldn't be "okay" with it, but there's lots of room between something I dislike and something I think people should go to jail for.
Nice straw man
you missed my point. It wasn’t about revenge porn. I gave the analogy as a way to show how anyone who views the porn is re victimizing over and over again. To top it off as everyone else has stated you’re creating a market. Websites make a ton of money the more visitors they get. So if you’re putting up something even for free that creates more traffic then you’re creating a bigger market
As I said in the article, I think people should be prosecuted for selling CP, which would include setting up a website and making money from ads hypothetically (although I find it very unlikely that anyone actually runs their company's ads on a CP cite...).
I also agree that viewing CP is immoral (just like recreationally watching a video of someone getting murdered is immoral). The question is if people should go to jail for it. I don't think they should. That doesn't mean I think it's a good thing to do.
The reason that viewing it is illegal is bc people CREATE CSAM to sell it. Making it illegal to view it not only stops a percentage of sales but it also helps LEAD to who was selling it. Just like possessing drugs, cops may not care so much about the possessor but who they want is actually the seller and creator. It’s not murder “porn”, it’s something much more sinister than that. I’m someone who is a survivor of child molestation and the thought of you or anyone else getting off on the idea that I was molested is disgusting and immoral, but had you POSSESSED my CSAM that SHOULD be illegal. It shouldn’t be out there and I should have that protection from my government, not the other way around.
If you know something is illegal and you seek it out… that means you have a problem. When the fear of prison and loss of job doesn’t deter you then that’s a problem and you are a pedophile. I can tell you based on work I’ve done in the past that people who accidentally view it on a website and do not seek It out are not prosecuted. Very simple forensic investigations on your computer or phone can tell if you accidentally bumped into it or searched for it. And if you searched for it you purposely committed a crime because you can’t control your urges. These are the people who need to be arrested because they create a market and may even eventually hurt a child. I have seen firsthand several times someone get flagged for child porn. They get questioned and say “honest to god it was an accident. I was bouncing around online and clicked here and this page popped up” and when they investigate the computer it turns out to be true and no charges are filed problem is most people who claim it was an accident end up having hundreds or thousands of pictures downloaded on their computer and claim it’s an accident. Happened recently where I live to an actual police officer. He claimed it was an accident and had about 3,000 images downloaded.
Well said. And excellent example.
As a victim I can tell you that viewing it is not a victimless crime. This only creates excuses for the illegal act and doesn’t even consider the side of the victim. You should be seriously ashamed of yourself and I hope you question your morals after this.
Actually is this some kind of satire? IOr is the malesurvivor website just a place to share dirty stories?
It's a website where abused men talk about their childhoods.
Every photo and video that pedos use for gratification is of a real child. A child being sexually objectified. It is SO not a victimless crime i dont know how you think it is. Its so unlike the war on drugs i cant even. For your information pedophiles do not care if you love them or hate them. They want to abuse kids is all.
I think you are conflating the creation of CSAM with the viewing of it. Creating it obviously victimizes a child (unless a minor makes it truly on their own, in which case they are victimizing themselves if they share it with anyone).
The act of merely viewing it in an isolated and private environment is a victimless crime.
It’s not victimless to the child, you’re talking from the other side but as a survivor of child molestation your posturing is plainly wrong. If you viewed my CSAM it is and should be illegal, plainly thinking about it however is not, that’s your freedom and my freedom is to be protected from ppl like you who believe it should be legal, resurfaced and spread.
From the article: "Another argument is to protect the privacy and safety of the children depicted in the images. To this end, CSAM should be sought, seized, and destroyed with no exceptions. My hope is that AI moderation tools will soon make it impossible to create or distribute CSAM."
I understand you are angry but I clearly said CSAM should be destroyed.
No, your article clearly states that you believe that viewing it should be legal. Don’t backtrack and try to mask it as condoning AI CSAM.
The reality is that there’s reasons why CSAM isn’t allowed on any platforms nor is the likeliness of it. It’s not in video games, it’s not in anime or cartoons now. The fact is that I was actually groomed by someone using Disney princess likeliness porn. This is serious stuff that you’re not considering whatsoever, because again, you’re not looking at it from the victim’s side, your pants are unzipped and you’re looking for the next “non-porn” porn you can find.
Take responsibility for what you said. It sounds like you’ve made it to a place in exploring sexual gratification where you’ve already overstepped the boundaries of what’s moral, now you’re having a hard time seeing how something can be illegal and directly why. You’ve written this article from the viewpoint of a pedophile and are in fact condoning the viewing of it. As far as AI CSAM I’ve already stated the harm; such as making the likeliness of an actual child. I honestly think it’s time you seek help with your sexual gratification because you’re in serious and legal murky waters. I believe you’ve already sought out CSAM or are considering it while looking for validation. That’s not what you’re going to get.
You use the word “angry” to downgrade the reality; I’m triggered as a survivor. I never used expletive words or even an exclamation point. You took the stance of a victim when met with the truth of a survivor, a true pedophile tactic.
This is why you and “articles” like this are extremely harmful and you’ve sought out a secondary posting website instead of using your own with your full name affiliated with it. However, what you’ve posted is against Substack guidelines be it that you are promoting something that is entirely illegal and for a good reason.
You also stated that simply looking at CSAM is a victimless crime and I’m here to tell you again, it isn’t. There are reasons it’s illegal and also helps track down pedophiles. But you’re completely ignoring them by saying, “it’s a victimless crime”.
Like I said, you didn’t use statistics or even take the viewpoint of the victim, but instead the pedophile, which as someone who has been through loads of therapy, taken psych and even counseled survivors, you’re a either already a predator or on your way to becoming one and are grappling with it. To be clear, veiwing CSAM material is predatory, not “should be legal”.
I think Max agrees with you that the existence and distribution of CSAM is horrible, but he thinks that the blame and punishment should be placed on the abusers who create CSAM and the buyers who incentivize it, rather than people who just look at it without paying. Those people should get help and go to therapy to stop them from acting further, but shouldn't be thrown in jail, since they haven't (yet) contributed directly to the CSAM market. I think putting them in prison would only increase their alienation from society and therefore their likelihood to abuse a child in the future.
I think you're right that viewing CSAM is predatory, but I think we as a society should respond by getting those people help rather than instantly throwing them in jail.
Our system is already set up that way. We’re assuming that Max is correct in saying that a majority of first time offenders go to jail, we’ve yet to see the statistics on that.
We’ve also yet to see that if a person who views CSAM goes to jail. Also, what are the benefits on victims or catching the actual perpetrator and putting a stop to CSAM all together. We’re also not getting information on why CSAM is one of the most horrid and problematic illegal acts. What happens to the victims? And isn’t the whole point that we put a cease to CSAM? We’re looking at this like it’s just someone who’s looking to get high, but it’s much more than that and comparing the two discounts the harm that is done to a child of molestation. He obviously said that if he was a pedophile then he’d look at CSAM… he’s admitting that only pedophiles look at CSAM and pedophilea is extremely illegal in this country. There are countries ppl can go to view it or take advantage of children but the point of our laws to show that we’re vehemently against those sort of acts. Max says that viewing CSAM is a “victimless crime” and as a victim I can with my whole heart tell you that’s not true.
Which side are you on, the victim or the pedophile? And before you answer consider this; I’m all for getting pedos the help they need, but what if allowing access to CSAM doesn’t leave the pedo satisfied, but more hungry? While it also harms the victim again?
No matter what anyone says I’m a victim telling you that it harms victims by viewing CSAM. You can believe me, someone who is experienced in this subject matter, or someone who is ill experienced and posturing for self or pedophilia benefit. There’s no statistical evidence that says viewing CSAM is helpful in stopping child abuse, so why allow it? Just because ppl are making cartel murder videos? What’s the reasoning behind it? Why are we trying to protect pedophiles and not the victims bc you now know that it harms the victim and isn’t a victimless crime like Max said.
Imagine we do open up Pandora’s box and all of a sudden looking at CSAM was legal. Imagine looking over in the train or doctors office and someone is viewing a child being brutalized. Imagine the worst too bc just like Max wants, it’s all open game since murder videos are somehow equal. Now imagine for a moment, that child was YOURS or even you, maybe a sister or cousin or best friend from growing up. You can’t do anything about it bc just looking at it is legal now. Reporting it does nothing bc it’s legal for them to view it and you have no proof that it was being shared by them so even calling the cops to find out where it came from would be fruitless.
By saying it’s a victimless crime it’s apparent that neither you nor Max are actually considering the victim here and you can’t argue the fact that it is harmful to victims because I’m a victim, telling you it’s harmful to me.
The other point is that CSAM is non-consensual, just like rape porn. So imagine for a moment that rape porn is legal too, so videos of your mom, your sister, your daughter being raped or their CSAM is now circulating the school or office place (not being shared, just told where to view it). They never consented to that and they are not only now viewed differently but are subject to harassment or even expulsion or firing. Your mom was just fired bc she was raped and someone made a video of it and it’s legal to view.
This is why viewing this sort of damaging porn should be and will always be illegal, it’s to protect the victim, not the distributor or even viewer.
"okay, if you buy child porn, then yes, you are directly incentivizing someone else to commit a crime. But not if you just look at it."
I think looking at it also incentivizes the production of it. If the person producing the material believes others will benefit from looking at it, and the producer wants to 'help' others, then downloading their material is conformation to them that they should continue.
Also, sorta related: does clout play a factor in your porn veganism? In a post scarcity society, I could see social standing being a form of currency (Ian M. Banks explores this in his 'Culture' novels), and if someone is doing porn to be more famous, would that be a factor for you?
I am classifying looking at it as indirect incentivization, whereas requesting it or paying for it would be direct. (The same way watching a mass shooting video is indirectly incentivizing mass shooters, as opposed to actually hiring someone to carry out a mass shooting.)
No, clout is a derogatory way to say attention, but nearly everyone likes attention.
the last few paragraphs were brilliantly written. bravo good arguments all around.
As a survivor of child molestation you’re both WRONG and aren’t looking at it from the victim’s point of view but instead the victimizer who is trying to find excuses for your CRIMES.
Thank you sir.
Few topics challenge me as deeply as pedophilia, often pushing my rationality aside in favor of emotional reactions. It's rare for me to engage with such content, and even rarer to find someone with the courage, or perhaps defiance, to express views like yours. Thank you for adding a unique perspective to the discourse.
This isn’t courage, it’s a display of guilt and excuses for a disgusting act. it’s creating a blanket over the idea that CSAM isn’t that bad. It’s excusing the illegal act of viewing it without considering someone like me, the actual victim.
My sister was molested while i was locked out of the room, unable to protect her, when I was a child. I empathize with your struggle and understand why this article makes you feel the way you do. I hope you, like my sister, have the courage, maybe defiance, to not perpetuate the cycle.
As they say: Hurt people, hurt people. I get it.
Did you just fucking say you hope I’m not a pedophile? How do you live with yourself with such a disgusting mind? Your comment is abhorrent and I feel completely sorry for your sister and hope YOU don’t get off on CSAM. Holy cow
I did not. Sorry to offend.
Have a wonderful week!
Thank you for the clarification and please consider never saying that phrase to a survivor. To imply anyone who doesn’t display any pedophile behaviors is extremely harmful let alone a survivor. If you’re telling the truth you’re one as well so you should know this. Even someone who was forced to watch it is a survivor.
I also wouldn’t be here speaking out against CSAM if I was a perpetrator or someone who is trying to hurt people, I’m trying to stop that very thing from happening.
Understood. Thank you for clarifying.
If you are interested in my perspective:
People who are victims of abuse, which are many of us, have a tendency to inflict continued harm and suffering on ourselves and the people around us. It takes courage and defiance to not perpetuate this abuse. I view this as a human cyclical condition and something we should all consider. I know personally, that many times I'm not at my best and I need to forgive myself for that so I can forgive others as well.
As a survivor of child molestation this is absolutely disgusting and instead is upholding the side of the criminal instead of considering the victims. It’s abhorrent behavior:
At your service.
I think the argument about consumption of CSAM fueling the industry maybe isn't as simple as the distinction you make between paying for it and not paying for it. Outside of the dark web, people consume content seemingly for free all the time, but we have huge amounts of advertising infrastructure behind every page render that means even an idle viewing is enough to indirectly support a creator financially, or at least provide them an incentive to keep producing. In theory if this kind of system also existed in the spaces where CSAM was distributed, does the onus fall on the viewer again here?
Obviously it's a crime on the advertisers part for supporting a CSAM website, but if I'm an illegal business that wants to advertise somewhere, I may as well choose to do so on an another illegal service. Even if that service isn't directly making money from its products, it might have some overlap in user demographics with mine that I want to capitalise on. This isn't even counting instances where legitimate businesses could unknowingly give ad revenue to CSAM producers. I don't know how often that's the case, in fact I don't know what the landscape is for advertising stuff on the dark web either, so you might rightly say this is pointless as a hypothetical.
I don't think so. I think the advertisers would be responsible, like you said.
I assume people distribute CSAM for free mostly because they are lonely.
THEY DONT DO IT OUT OF LONELINESS THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH REACHING SEXUAL GRATIFICATION WITHOUT VICTIMIZING SOMEONE OR WATCHING THEM BE VICTIMIZED! We’re not talking about child-like dolls, we’re talking about real children like me, a survivor of child molestation!
You are wrong. I am a MAP. I do not want to hurt anyone. It is hard to live a life full of sexual urges an be unable to act upon them, not impossible, hard. I am going to draw a comparison with homosexuality, even though I am aware the correlation is not completely direct. However, since it is easier to empathize with a homosexual living in a society where their sexual orientation is not considered acceptable, it might be easier for you to understand what pedophiles feel, even if you do not care. Unless you completely suppress sexuality out of pedophiles, which has shown to have really high incidences of suicide, it is inhuman to assume a person can live without expressing their sexuality in one way or another, at least through masturbation. Allowing for AI CSAM would be only a matter of pity towards pedophiles. I wish people had that.